In Episode 2, Steve Zeng CEO of Thumb Media joins us to talk about the similarities and differences in sports and athletics between the US and China, including the Olympics, athlete's career journeys and sports fandom.
(00:44) Lucia and Siyuan share their Olympics memories and thoughts on the 2021 Summer Olympics
(07:54) Steve joins the conversation
(10:50) The group discusses what the NYT got right and wrong with their article: The Chinese Sports Machine’s Single Goal: The Most Golds, at Any Cost
(18:11) Steve highlights how athlete development is seen as a career track early on in life in China
(22:38) Are Chinese athletes awarded the same opportunities for fame and fortune?
(30:26) How Sports fandom is becoming more athlete-centric
(31:47) Steve shares his surprising experiences creating a high school girls basketball doc in Sichuan
(37:06) How female Chinese athletes are confronting body image issues
(45:53) China's new trend of naturalizing athletes
NOTES
Watch Thumb Media's docs (including the girl's HS series) on Youtube
Follow us on IG: @bundtobrooklyn
Follow us on Twitter: @bundtobrooklyn
Questions? Requests? E-mail us @ b2b@1990institute.org
Learn more about the 1990 Institute
(This is an automatically generated transcript)
[00:00:00] Siyuan Meng: Hey, you are listening to bump to Brooklyn again.
[00:00:22] Lucia Liu: Hey everyone. This is Lucia.
[00:00:25] Siyuan Meng: So as the token pig just, ended as the time of the recording today, we are going to talk about sports and the sports fandom in China and the us. We will invite Steve, Jen CEO of China based sports, media, media to talk about Olympics and how audiences in China and the U S consume sports
content differently.
So, Lucia, are you a big.
sports fan?
uh, define big. I would
[00:00:50] Lucia Liu: say that I'm probably not that big of a sports fan, but I did watch bits and, pieces of the
Olympics.
[00:00:56] Siyuan Meng: yeah, same. I don't think I'm the biggest sports fan ever as well, but,
I did follow
Olympic this year and has been pretty interesting.
[00:01:04] Lucia Liu: Yeah. were some of like your favorite, Olympic activities or like Olympic sports?
Uh, I do follow
[00:01:12] Siyuan Meng: table tennis, badminton,
swimming and diving platform diving. some of my favorite, Chinese athletic this year during
[00:01:21] Siyuan Meng: Olympics. Uh, one is . Have you heard of him?
[00:01:25] Lucia Liu: No, I'm terrible with the Olympic names. I do remember the 14 year old diver who, who
scored perfect tens on
all three
dives
[00:01:33] Siyuan Meng: Oh yeah.
[00:01:34] Lucia Liu: she was insane. And I can't,
I can't remember her name.
I'm the
worst.
[00:01:38] Siyuan Meng: name is Tran hometown.
I think she is the youngest, Chinese Affleck this year. Really impressive. I think she, you score three
perfect tents out of five in the final round.
[00:01:50] Lucia Liu: Yeah. I watched that and I was like, what? She's a fish.
[00:01:55] Siyuan Meng: I know I was like, there's no way she can't do this, but
have so impressive.
[00:02:01] Lucia Liu: Yeah. So tell me about Sue being here.
[00:02:03] Siyuan Meng: Yeah. So being 10, this year is one of the
biggest stars. I will say for a lot of Chinese audience, because he broke, the Asian, male Ricard for the men's, a hundred meter. And he was the
first Asian sings,
1932 to go to the final round of the this
event. So like, people are really
proud of him.
[00:02:29] Lucia Liu: Yeah.
[00:02:30] Siyuan Meng: Yeah,
but the most fun thing is I think for me is he was saying, carrying a rice cooker in the airport in China, returning back from Japan and Chinese Knutson's,were
kind of
joking. Like, did he buy any rice cooker in Japan?
[00:02:47] Lucia Liu: I'm surprised he didn't buy
a bad day as well. Right? like,
we were talking before we were recording. How, people from China go to Japan to buy two things, rice, cookers, and birthdays. So, you know, maybe he has one in his suitcase.
[00:03:02] Siyuan Meng: Yeah. My parents actually bought this two things a few years
back and we have,
yeah, we have been really enjoying the good
quality of it.
[00:03:13] Lucia Liu: I think for me, like, one
of the highlights
of the Olympics, besides diving, was the girl who gained.
First gold, w in shooting for, for China. And, uh, my parents told me about it and later on, I watched her and she was just so calm and it was kind of funny cause like she basically won gold and she was like, hi, I'm here.
I'm going to go back to Taiwan. No,
[00:03:43] Siyuan Meng: Yes. She's very
[00:03:44] Lucia Liu: yeah. So it was just kind of funny cause
like she obviously goes to a great school and like, she kind of, you know, does this as well. So, it was just, it was kind of funny to watch.
[00:03:56] Siyuan Meng: Yeah. There's another Chinese female athlete. I remember, as shitty mouth, she actually opened
up conversation about her past experience dealing with depression. and so I think, that was pretty impressive.
[00:04:09] Lucia Liu: Yeah. I mean, I think
mental health has been
a pretty big topic in sports
lately, especially with like uh, Naomi Osaka and, you
know,
[00:04:19] Siyuan Meng: Yeah, Some of them bias.
Yeah,
[00:04:22] Lucia Liu: her, them, the two of them,
like sort of championing that. So it's kind of good to see that,
you know, Chinese athletes are also stepping up And speaking out about it.
Yeah. we're proud of them so I mean, looking at the metal count, right? Like a U S is in the lead. China's second, you know, an all friends. So I guess, like, I dunno, like how do you sort of feel about this, this, this round of Olympics?um, at the beginning
[00:04:50] Siyuan Meng: of Olympics,
I was actually not watching it at
all because I was following the gentle flooding
news and it was a very, devastating and to see, people died, in, in the flooding. but later, oh, I, catch up And I think it's pretty fun.
this yearChinese public doesn't really care about only the gold medals. Like they think silver or bronze Maddow or count also even like those athletes who didn't secure any Meadows, people were cheering for them. So I think that's really a
progress I'm seeing here.
[00:05:29] Lucia Liu: Yeah, absolutely. something that I forgot to mention, that I didn't mention. I mean, we had some really record breaking things, for the American Olympics as well, right? Like Sunni Sully, achieved the first gold medal for Asian American women, and all around the Olympics. And, you know, that was record shattering.
Uh, and I saw her routine. I saw her floor routine and her, uneven bar routine and he felt like those were both really great. So you know, I think she's like a really good role model to a lot of women,
[00:05:59] Siyuan Meng: Yeah. Well, the lovely more I can recall and send these,congratulated, One of Chinese, genetic star, one Tinton, uh, they like, hug and Cindy's a post on Instagram story. So I think the friendship, they have a very like
lovely.
[00:06:17] Lucia Liu: I mean, speaking about like
you know, friendship and, us and China, and like sort of understanding each other better, right? Like, you had sent me an article from the New York times, about. Kind of documenting the opposite of what you had just said, around, you know, China's obsession with gold medals and trying to sort of turning out, athletes in their like China factory, right?
Like that's basically, I think the vibe of the article that I got, and, you know, later on we, talked to Steve who, uh, is the founder of the media and is highly involved in the sports industry, in the sports world, in China. And we sort of get his take on it, but like, I think that's a really, interesting, example of how, when you.
Sort of spin a country in a way, like a country and their athletes in a way that they are sort of dehumanized it, it can create a lot of, problems and it can create sort of divides as opposed to like kind of the friendships that, you know, at the top of our conversation that Noosa, portrayed.
[00:07:23] Siyuan Meng: Yeah, definitely. We can talk
more about this.
So next up, we have a conversation with Steve and we talk a bit about, his take on the New York times article. We talk about how, his involvement in, athletics in China, his, company, the media, and what he's been up to.
Uh, but before we transition over to our talk with Steve, You can follow us on Instagram on Twitter. at Bunda Brooklyn, you can also email us@beentobrooklynatgmail.com and you can find this podcast on Spotify, apple, and all major podcast
[00:07:59] Lucia Liu: networks.
all right. Well, Steve, we're super excited to have you on the PIDE. do you mind giving yourself a quick intro?
[00:08:19] Steve Zeng: Sure. Yeah. first of all. Thanks for having me guys. so I was born in Sutra in China where we're pretty famous for uh,pandas and spicy food. and I always say if there was like a, Olympic competition for eating spicy food, I think I'd have a pretty good shot at it. and then, uh, For elementary school, I moved to Canada. So I grew up in around Toronto and Ontario. And for middle school, I moved to Philly. I grew up in the suburbs of Philadelphia, watched the Allen Iverson, you know, Cody, Bryan had just come out of Philly. and the pro teams in Philly. weren't very good, but,really found a, an interest in sports. And then for undergrad, I went to chapel hill. so I'm a diehard tar heel, and a, huge college basketball fan. And then, after school, I worked in New York as an investment banker.and in 2010 I found an opportunity with a bay area based, investment firm, to join their Beijing office.
And so I moved out here. started to look at early stage venture investments. And, uh, and then eventually, you know, after five years of doing that, I started to do my own startup in, in sports media. So the company is called thumb media and we focus on producing, you know, sports content for the Chinese audience, whether it's MBA and I fell MLB, you know, kind of cover all range of sports and, and markets. Steve, did you follow this year's Olympics? Did you watch more on team USA events or
[00:09:41] Siyuan Meng: tightness?
[00:09:42] Steve Zeng: Yeah. I follow a lot of Olympics. I mean, I'm part of it. we, we had, um, worked with one of the major Chinese brands on, kind of their Olympic campaign on social media. so I follow a lot in that respect, but it wasn't so much keen to watch one particular country versus the other.I think deep down in my heart, I always root for, for China. Uh, it just kind of a natural to me. I, especially in
any kind of Olympic setting, I always think about like, am I more Chinese or
more American? But I just think like when I watch Olympic sports, I root for China just it's, it's a kind of inner, inner, guide to where I really
lean.
[00:10:19] Lucia Liu: I kind of resonate with that. Steve, even though I grew up in the states, I
remember just growing up, we would, as a family, watch the
Olympics
all the
time and. We would always root for team China, like when it really
came on. And,
I
[00:10:36] Lucia Liu: can, I can really
resonate with that. I think despite all of
that, like, you
know, you lived in so
many different places, like you've lived in the states, you've lived in Canada.
Um, you're now back in
[00:10:47] Lucia Liu: China,
it must be kind
of interesting to have all these different perspectives. And like, I guess, like, you know, one of the things we talked about.
prior
to recording this episode is this New York times article where, um, the U S kind of paints this picture of Chinese athletes being sort of turned off of conveyor belt, right?
Like very, um, industrial. They describe it as a machine. And that single goal is to turn out as many gold medals at any cost. Right. I'd love for us to dig in and like, talk a bit about that piece and how, um, I guess your different perspectives lend you, insight into like, you know, how this piece is interesting or how this piece sort of affects you.
[00:11:34] Steve Zeng: Yeah. So, so my first reaction to that is, it's, it's kind of what perspective you have, Because, when it comes to any sports or any kind of sports training, I think, you know, we've all been kind of different levels of athletes. right? But we know it's tough. Right. And if you want to bethe best of the best, it is like extremely tough.
you know, the, the things you have to sacrifice the level of commitment and work you have to put in, and it may not always be in the best conditions. Right. And so I think, that level, when you are striving to be world-class good. I think those kinds of like training it's to be expected. So to say, and then the other thing, in terms of like striving for a gold medal is, I don't know, professional athletes who train to be second place.
[00:12:24] Steve Zeng: Right. like, no, one's like, Hey, I want
to be the second best at this. And so I'm going to try really
hard, like everyone's trying to win. And so I think the idea that, Hey, we're here to
train him
and work to get a gold medal. I don't, I don't think there's anything wrong.
Yeah, actually, I first, uh, came across this article on Twitter. Actually. I don't really like the headline and also the tone of the
[00:12:46] Siyuan Meng: article. Like after seeing the
headline, I
was like, oh, so wait, I'll wait. All robots. Is that what this article is going to talk about? So, yeah, I was a bit surprised to see that, but. Yeah, I, I think this year, especially uh, if you follow Chinese, social media's coverage on Olympics, USC, there's very interesting story about the athletes themselves. like purchase them in a very, humanized side, not like this New York times article.
[00:13:16] Steve Zeng: Yeah, the the, thing I would add though. So the flip side of
this, I do think China places an emphasis on gold metals, right. And, and optically, we always see that with the metal standards, right. Where, at least in Chinese media, the
metal
standing is always sorted by who
has
the most gold metals, whereas in the U
S
media, you'll see it's sorted by who has the most number of total
metals.
Right.
the other is,
as we talk more about athletes and how athletes are developed in China. versus in the U S but, so the preface is I've never been to any of these training centers myself. So I can't really speak on that, but, one of myfriends, she was part of, uh, the Chinese national. figure skating development team And it was kind of interesting to hear how she got into the program. long story short, she was, uh,first initially selected, into the rollerblading team. So they were developing the national rollerblading teamand it wasn't because she had, found this as a hobby or passion or interest or demonstrated any kind of, talents for this But it was actually, she says she was selected based on her DNA,
China had taken. DNA samples of all their Olympic athletes or Olympic gold medalists, and had seen somekind of matching pattern with hers. And she did prove to be very good at, rollerskating. and while she wasn't good enough to be on the national team, they then had her say like, Hey, why don't you go try, figure skating or ice skating.
[00:14:44] Steve Zeng: And so that's an anecdotal,uh, example and not every single athlete comes out that way. And she obviously didn't stay on that track, but it's just to hear. Um, and also like
know, athletes, uh, some athletes I would say are selected and developed in China. Right. And so that's a little bit different from, know,
[00:15:05] Steve Zeng: what we may be
[00:15:06] Lucia Liu: interesting, like having a national program for it, where
they broadly
try to encourage people to
become athletes or they look for high potentials and then develop them. I mean, it's kind of funny cause like, It kind of reminds me of the K-pop engine, right. Where like they basically scout for talent and then they put you through this like highly intense, highly, you know, mentally draining regime to like then debut you.
Right. And I think it can be somewhat similar. what I think is sort of a turnoff in the way that this particular article is describing Chinese people and this sort of way of, cultivating talent is that, you know, they make it sound super sterile. They make it sound like, Oh,
it's this regime that's like doing it.
It's turning out these like, you know, quote unquote super soldiers almost, right? you can picture a like Falcon and winter soldier situation where they like have these people becoming like super soldiers and like basically take over the gold medal count.
I think there's, some dangers in that type of reporting, especially when you, when you see the, sort of the pride that, that occurs, when athletes in the U S win gold medals, right? Like when, when we win, it's like, oh, this person like put in blood, sweat, and tears, or like, you know, they think about Sinisa Lee, right?
Like she broke a record. She became the first Asian American woman to win, all around gymnastics. Right. And like, there's so much pride and like, you know, happiness and, the sort of humanizing and like blood, sweat, and tears that go into that versus like, oh yeah. Trying to just want another golden ping-pong.
But like, you don't see the video of, um, I forgot to, is, is it like, uh, leasing Shashi, sorry. Yes. who. Captures, like he's able to like return all that in scene, sort of like VAT volleys on ping pong, right? Like that's the stuff that my mom sends me.
And then it's very different from like, you know, the stuff that you sort of read in the news. And I think what would be really helpful in this conversation, Steve and Suzanne is for us to humanize a bit about, you know, an exchange sentiments across like how, you know, American athletes and Chinese athletes can be similar in many ways, but then can also be different.
And how do we
sort of accept that?
[00:17:37] Siyuan Meng: Yeah, actually, I think there have been some reforms inside, uh, China's uh, sports schools. So right now I think they have been putting more emphasize on athletes, personal development, like maybe there's Chinese class, a math class, English car, they were putting more emphasis on that.
[00:17:56] Steve Zeng: Yeah. So I think that's a really, uh, interesting point. And the thing that I would add to that, or I think would to build on is, is what CNN just mentioned about sports schools in China. And I think pretty early on, we actually need to establish this,this concept because it's actually a basis for a lot of comparison between us and China. it in China. as you go through elementary school and then middle school and high school, um, there's actually two tracks. There's this academic track. And the best way to think about is that's kind of the track that we're most familiar with in the U S I mean, you, you do go to school, you go to your studies, you go to math, class biology, et cetera. And then after school, you can participate in sports, um, and you can represent your high school and play in high school basketball competitions.and then there's also the sports track where it's kind of flipped around where effectively you are majoring in a sport, and you are you're in our electives are math and science and such.
And so the, the, the idea that, that there's two tracks, I think,creates a bit of tension. One is, uh, at an early age, you know, basically a middle-school while you're you're in sixth, seventh, or eighth grade, you have to kind of decide.
You're a career or am I going to be an athlete or am I going to be a
student?
And, uh, you know, and then work in the, in the real world, so to speak. And so, first of all, on the development side at that stage, it's kind of hard to
choose, right? Cause you're relatively A little bit taller than your peers. and a lot of
times they'll choose because they're academically, they
may not be great. but you, you miss out on
all
the late bloomers. Right.
And then secondly, like what does that set
you up
for later? you know, and, and so you hear these, these stories anecdotally like, well, one, I just
shared where you may not have made it in this sport. And so what do you do next? And I think the best us
comparison
is if you think about college athletics, especially major sports printed grad programs, right?
So if you play football at Alabama, we all know that you're majoring in
football, but you're, if you don't make the
NFL, what do you do? Like, what's your next best thing. Right? And, and a lot of times, you know, the, the parallels there, so you
can go into coaching. So you see a lot of, you know, And theseathletes, when they come out of the sports schools in China, they
may become, you know, gym teachers.
That's kind of always the running joke. Oh, I'm going to
become a
gym teacher because yes, most of them do
become
gym
teachers. Right. Or they tried different sport, right?
Like, Hey, you didn't make it as a football athlete. Why don't you go play, try to play basketball. you know, and then there's
examples of basketball players, NCA basketball players who didn't make it in the NBA.
And they went on to have hall of fame careers, and then I felt right. And so,
Hey, switch a
career.
So with this stuff, you can see the
parallel. It's just that in
China, that track
you choose that at an
[00:20:45] Steve Zeng: early age. And So then this
idea that.
where's the emphasis, right? the
[00:20:49] Steve Zeng: emphasis on all, you, have to make this
choice and maybe it
wasn't the choice you really wanted to make. And so I think that comparison back to the
New York times,
article of saying, Hey, this is a factory where, you know, a machine That we're cranking
out. These athletes, there's this underlying
assumption that they
don't want to be there, right. That it's not
their passion or that they're reluctant to
be there. And they're kind of forced to be there.
but if we assume
[00:21:13] Steve Zeng: that this was
their passion, that this was their dream, their dream was to become The world's greatest, ping-pong player, then it's fine. Right. I
think
then you can, you know, tell a totally different story because you know, the gym, the gymnast story, you can also tell, we all know
gymnastics is extremely, extremely,
grueling, right?
The training is
extremely regimented
and the things that they have to
go through to become an Olympic gold medalist is you can also paint
that picture is really, really,
really,
tough. How the system is set up in China is really
important.
so sort of interesting question, Steve, right? Like, you've talked a bit
[00:21:47] Lucia Liu: about developmentally, like kids and trying to have to sort of choose a path earlier. I mean, I, I do think that, It's a point of privilege in
America that we're able to choose things a little later and we're giving time to explore.
Um, and so to your point, like seeing the other side of the coin, which is like, listen, like they did have to choose. And unfortunately, sometimes like they do have to choose a little later, but that's because, you know, they don't have as much privilege as we do here in, in America. I think one thing that's interesting is like, you know, later on we can talk a bit more about like fandom and how that differs across, you know, Chinese fans versus American fans, but sort of interested from like a.
athlete perspective, you think about these like Olympic athletes, uh, and a lot of people look up to them, like I knew the names of like the divers, like right. And they do a lot of advertisement, et cetera. So I guess like, sort of curious if like, athletics provide the same opportunities for fame and
[00:22:48] Lucia Liu: fortune in China. right. and like, how do they sort of use that
platform to then communicate to other people?cause you're seeing a lot of activism, in sports these
days with like, you know, focus on mental health focus on racial
inequities. and yeah, I guess just sort of
curious if that happens.
[00:23:12] Steve Zeng: Yeah. So,
so on the fame and fortune side, you know, this is a interest it's really interesting. So I think being an athlete in China, for, for making the comparison to us athletes becoming famous is, is, it's about the same meaning. Like if you're good at a sport, um, in us or in China, you can become famous the fortune side, uh, as much more difficult, becoming, a famous athlete in China versus a famous athlete in the U S you do not generate the same amount of fortune while anecdotally there might be, you know, specific one or two examples of someone who's a really good athlete and in China, and has made a
lot of money, as far and few between. and I think there's a lot of reasons that
contribute
to this. And this is sort of the, the business side of me thinking a little
bit more in the sports business side. But,
I think one of the main reasons is that in the U S sports is part of entertainer. We, we, we consider sports NBA is an entertainment product where they're here to entertain fans. like I always like, the use of the idea of Shaquille Neo. like he's just a really good entertainer and he understands like, that is his value. Right? And he does all these reality shows and, you know, makes rap videos. And he understands he's an entertainer. And that basketball is just that it's a hobby that people enjoy playing and watching, whereas in China, sports is your career.
It's like, you're a professional right And so it is not lumped into entertainment. It is a separate thing. And actually, like, it feels stiff And rigid in the sense that like athletes are, you know, they're, they're just someone who has a professional skill right now, not unlike a barber or, you know, plumber, like they're really good at this one thing. And so I think that actually limits them, on the fortune side, on the marketing side. Right. And then when it comes to, you know, speaking up about, you know, there's this always the tension in China, there's just certain things you can speak about and certain things you can't. And so I think China has opened up and become more liberal and open about,
certain topics such as like
mental health. And so I think those things are happening and, and, and, you know, and I think we'll get into this a little bit too about, you know, your physical appearance
and such. Um, but
then there's, you know,
obviously certain things that it just it's just censored. Right. And so, there's a fine line. And I think, you know, people will probably have to
hold back
on some things.
Right. But you know, we are, we are starting to see that a little bit more as athletes are starting to use their platform to speak up about more
issues.
[00:25:47] Lucia Liu: It feels like China's kind of a little. But behind the U S right. In a sense that . Like, athletes, I think prior to
like
the last like
decade or so, like athletes weren't seen
as entertainers, like, I don't think Wayne Gretzky would think
of themselves as like an entertainer, but like, Michael Jordan,
like being on space jam, right?
Like he's now an entertainer, same thing with LeBron. right. being on space jam too. So I think that maybe like, China's
just lagging behind a bit in
terms of like how to have their celebrities
build brand and like continue to be relevant to their
audiences and continue down their career. As
you know, once they've retired from sports.
[00:26:34] Steve Zeng: Yeah. I don't know if being behind is the right description. I still think that it really, it stems from this dual track, right. Concept that being an athlete is a profession. Right. Whereas, you know, if you're the academic track and you know, after school you'll play basketball, that's a hobby. So in the U S this idea that sports is a hobby or sports is an interest, right.
We grow out of that. this is also why, like, in the U S like us athletes, they're really passionate, right. You really see someone who's really, really good at a certain sport, not be passionate about it, just because it always starts out like 99% of the time as a hobby, as an interest, as something they did as a
kid, after they did their homework or after school. in China for a lot of these athletes, that was their profession that they picked when they were 14
years old.
Like this is my career job. And it's a job that I do. And I'm a professional at doing this job. and so. It's not that China is behind. It's just that in China. It's two different worlds, right? It's not a hobby, it's a job. And that's kind of
how it's defined to you when you're in middle school. Like this is your career that you're going to, this is your job you're going to have for the next, you know, 60 years
of
your life. Like here's the,
here's your
tool, you know, roll out a basket.
[00:27:51] Lucia Liu: Yeah.
[00:27:52] Siyuan Meng: yeah, actually I agree with Steve.
I think not every Chinese athlete can become famous and rich, uh, later after they retired. but there's a couple of interesting examples such as Ken, Leah. Uh, actually he is, he was a diving star, but he joined the entertainment industry and became an actor. And to also join a couple of other reality show as well. I think he has a couple of brand endorsement deal with him.actually this year I do, uh, see Chinese, social media has been calling for brandsto, have more athletes to become the brand ambassador for them instead of pop idols, especially following a couple of
[00:28:37] Siyuan Meng: scandals
with Chinese pop idols, such as
Chris.
Woo. Uh, so I feel the respect for athletes are actually really on the rise,
[00:28:46] Steve Zeng: Yeah, the, the is as a public
figure, like, Chinese athletes generally, it's tough. It's tougher to market around them because they're, they're limited in their public persona of what they, what they can show them what they can be. So I'll give you a simple example, like, you know, there was a
Chinese, variety show, right?
Where they invited, some, men's basketball players to be on the show. and there was a lot of backlash in terms of like, why are you going on an entertainment show? Like you're a professional athlete, to the degree of like, why aren't you at practice? You're not even good at basketball. Right? Like, I mean, that kind of
commentary is just like,for athletes to become more marketable.
And in China, there has to be this idea. They can go out and, you know, and do these things and be part of entertainment and, yeah. And create that kind of value for themselves or, or, or for others. Right. I think, in terms of Chinese athletes being famous. Sure. but then also I'm making a fortune.
Probably actually the best example is I think is meaning, right? Here's a former Chinese gymnast. he's basically the Michael Jordan of China.
Right. He's become, you know, he's taken his personal brand and
made it a, you know, basically the largest
sportswear
company in China. Um, it's
actually quite impressive, but,
that's because he's a good businessman.
It's not really
that
he leveraged his personal brand or IP. You didn't really even have that at that generation right. At that time. But I would say.
it's still far. And few between, there are small examples of, of someone, obviously they're getting brand deals and, and that, but it's, it's just very, it's very
limited.
And it's a part of it is public persona, right? like if this guy does anything outside of training, it's thought to be unprofessional, Right.
Where you're not doing your job.
interesting to hear a quick segue to like sports fandom, how are, I guess, like the fans different between, us and China. I w I think the the primary difference actually is
[00:30:47] Steve Zeng: just geographically, especially as a if we're talking about, American sports, NBA,
NFL,
Chinese fans don't have. Geographic ties toany NBA, team for the most part. And so it was kind of
from sort of day one when NBA
was introduced to China, um, they follow
the players, right?
I I'm a Michael Jordan fan. I'm a Kobe Bryant fan or Allen
Iverson fan. And obviously everybody's a yummy fan. And then, you know, after yeah. you know, there hasn't been much, but, you know, you're a Steph Curry fan, so you, you follow a players and as the players switch teams in the, in the NBA, your loyalty is tied to that player for the most part.
whereas in the U S obviously, you know, I went to, you know, element or elementary school in Canada, so I'm just a Raptors fan. I'm always going to be a Raptors fan. Um, it doesn't change where I go or what players come and leave. Right. And so. I think that's one of the primary differences. although, and we spoke about this before earlier, is that it sounds
[00:31:45] Steve Zeng: like the U S in terms of the younger audience, the gen Z audience, they're starting to become more player centric, right.
As opposed to team centric.
[00:31:53] Lucia Liu: Steve
speaking of marketing and speaking of
teams,
I know that you're
[00:31:58] Lucia Liu: doing a docu-series,
with the media and I kind of want to touch on some of the work that you're doing in sports and China.
[00:32:06] Steve Zeng: Yeah. So we've been, um, developing, uh,high school basketball docu-series in
China. last year we did a short onefocused on,
a couple of girls
[00:32:16] Steve Zeng: high school basketball teams.one of them did really well. They made it into the elite eight, the, at the national level.
So it was a really, really good outcome. and then this year, we, eh, so last year was a, it was a three-part 10 minutes, each episode, three part docu-series more.Uh, and then this year we're, we're falling off of that.we're falling another high school girls team or which I should say we followed another high school girls team out of Sihon and we've been following them for six months.
And,and we're going to roll out a six episode, 30 minutes per episode. docu-series in and not to give away too much, but this, this team ended up winning the national championship in China this year, for girls high school basketball. so, a surprising outcome for all of us, but obviously a great outcome or super happy.
Um, and, we can dive into a lot of different things, but I think just the incredible to, to kind of get to know them, hear their story, and just kind of observe, I had a relatively close distance, like how, what their life is like, you know, it's, it's very interesting. Uh, so, so the first year we did it and, you know, we worked with uh, Nike, who was the,
[00:33:32] Steve Zeng: who's the
sponsor of the event. And also don't you share, which is the organizer of the event.
you know, they kind of, gave us the green light, but was
[00:33:39] Steve Zeng: kind of like, you know, go figure it out on your own. And that's just logical because that's where I'm from and
have some relationships and, You know, try to get our, get our foot in the
door with some of these schools, right?
Like know a lot last
year, one of
our camera men was, it was an American, he was, he was, Caucasian. Right? and so this is like the, also during COVID, it was kind of the, it was a lot of doors that knocked out. So it's just easier at us to try and having relationships.
And, and then she was just because we kind of as we were filming the story last year, we ran into this team and they were, they
were. You know, already pretty good. Um, they won the west region and so they were kind of the top team that came out of our region. And then I started to get to know the coach and learn about her story.
She used to be a cop. She used to be a police and this was pretty incredible. Um,and then she quit her day job to become a high school basketball coach, um, major career change. and part of that, was because of her mom's influence. Her mom was a high school at long-time high school basketball coach. Um, and her
mom wanted to kind of have her kind of take over her legacy and take over the program.
But, you know, you know, she's done an incredible job, obviously. And then in this, this particular program at this particular high school, It's only been four years. And so she's taken this school from not having a girls basketball team to winning the national championship, um, and knocking down some of the, kind of the top powerhouse programs in China.
so It's quite a, quite a.
[00:35:05] Siyuan Meng: Yeah, that's really interesting. I wonder when do you guys kind of released a documentary?
[00:35:10] Steve Zeng: That's the most painful part. Uh, it keeps getting it. We're we're still editing. It keeps getting pushed. Um, I'm sure you guys know
the process.
originally, it was supposed to be around now. It's supposed to be before the Olympics Now we're looking at maybe
late October.
you know, I, I try to
[00:35:26] Steve Zeng: tell
myself it's all for a good reason. It's all for a better, a better, a better story and a better edit, um, and better quality when it comes out.
But I'm pretty excited about this. It's uh,I think girls, uh, sports in general, but girls basketball in particular in China is just really. underserved and not appreciated and doesn't get any attention. and I'll be honest. I didn't go out at the initially and say, Hey, I'm just going to only do girls basketball. the first year I did this, it was, um, you know, the, in terms of looking for a good story, it was boys and girls. in fact, at the time I was thinking maybe I'll do a couple of boys
and maybe one girl,But finding good
characters, finding good stories. I just
felt like, you know, I say this, w not, not trying to be mean that the boys weren't as smart as the girls at that age, and, uh, as well, able to articulate themselves and,
Well, you couldn't find that, that cop turn basketball coach, that, that you were like, that's the character.
[00:36:31] Siyuan Meng: Okay.
[00:36:31] Lucia Liu: I wanted that
[00:36:32] Steve Zeng: that was, that. was, that was this. Yeah, that was great, But the initially, initially when we picked the girls teams in, so try and we looked, we talked to I talked to like
hundreds of Chinese school basketball players. Um, the
[00:36:44] Lucia Liu: for you.
[00:36:45] Steve Zeng: just, the boys were just like, not that interesting, That's what I said.
It was, their stories are all very similar. like you know, I didn't have a lot of great, you know, conditions or, I wasn't really good at school. or I was
tall and that's kinda how I got picked to play basketball and yeah, I like, basketball and you know, I like my teammates.
but you don't, you don't get more interesting, interesting
[00:37:11] Steve Zeng: commentary out of them.
[00:37:14] Lucia Liu: what's, what's like a memorable commentary from one of the girls that you've interviewed.
[00:37:19] Steve Zeng: So one of the, like one of the girls that
that like one of our characters last year, that
[00:37:24] Steve Zeng: there really jumped out. She's like, uh, she's, she's a sophomore in high school, right. In China or high school system, you guys know it's three years. Right. So the last three years of high school. And so she was a sophomore and She's this pretty big
girl, like, tall,
you know, she's got some meat on her
bones.
And I wanted to, actually, the question that I asked her about was more about
how she, how she felt about her physical
appearance. Right. Cause I was kind of Like, thinking you're in high school, you're kind of big, like, maybe that's not going to make You super comfortable, but she was just like her eyes lit up.
She was like, oh, I love my look. She's like, I feel great. Like
I
wish I
was better. like,
I was like, oh, this goes awesome. like
she just, had more
like
personality. it isn't even so
much like
that theme that really, it was just like her personality just
Like,
jumped out. Right. you can find those in,
in girls of that age Let's, let's talk about that. Cause like, you know,I went to, um, technically it was like freshman year of high school in China, but like, it's like junior high in China.
[00:38:27] Lucia Liu: because to your point, there's three years of high school in China. And then there's like, uh, three years of junior high. Um, so ninth grade, I went to a local school in China and I remember like It, kind of blew my mind. How, like PE was people kind of just like you know, never participated. The girls are like oh, I'm on my period.
I can't run. And I'm like, I've never heard that excuse in America. Like that has never happened. It like was super strange to me. So it became very clear to me that like, kids in China, at least in local school, didn't really participate much in it. like exercise or like you know, take, uh, sports very seriously. Versus like in the states we had like, you know, rotational sports, we learned different sports each semester, like all that stuff. Um, so it's kind of interesting that like you know, you're following, uh, a woman team, like a girls team. and then I'm sure like with they're, they're at that age where they're like super conscious of how they look.
So I think it's interesting that you mentioned this girl who's like just comfortable in her own skin and like proud of who she is.
[00:39:34] Steve Zeng: Yeah. So I feel like I at least. Because I don't interact with, a lot of like the we'll call them the regular, um, you know, students, in high school. But at
least with the
athletes, I found this theme
that I initially
thought to, to really not be
a big issue, meaning like, are these girls,
sensitive or, Not
[00:39:55] Steve Zeng: comfortable in their own skin and
actually, I think
many of
them are, And the reason why is because again, it still ties to that, They viewed themselves as basketball players.Right. And so
being extremely tall, like this year,
one of our, one of our characters she's in high school, she's six, six. She's like Michael Jordan's height. She's like
Kobe Brian's house. She's really,
really tall. Right. But does she feel awkwardly tall?
Not at all. You know, if you ask her, if she probably wants to be.
And the reason is because she views
herself as a basketball player.
Like,
that is her profession. That is her
[00:40:32] Steve Zeng: job. And
so this attribute is good for her. Right. and it's
not awkward if, if she viewed herself as a regular high school
student, then she may have a different
perspective about herself, right.
Or different view about
her physical appearance. But, I find that these girls, they don't really have
this issue. Right. And, you know, I, I know in China,
we, you know, we, we obviously like the media presents that like beauty, you have to have like really light
or, or
light skin. Right. And, you know, all these girls, like, you know, some of them, they train like outdoor
year round.
and they are
as, as dark skinned as I am Like
And they don't have any issues with that, you know, they're not,
[00:41:09] Steve Zeng: they're
putting on a lot of, um, cosmetic products on their, on their faces or on their,
body. Like they don't, they're not putting on sunscreen before they go practice. Like, they're just, they're just out there. And part of it is, I think is by definition or
by their view of themselves is that they're they're pursuing this track to become professional basketball players.
[00:41:30] Lucia: Yeah.
[00:41:30] Lucia Liu: You know what? That's a really interesting point because, um, while my husband and I were watching the, Olympics, one thing that we noticed was in particular javelin throwing, you know, how China won gold for women's javelin. and so I remember watching as like, each of these different contestants from different countries come up uh, the, the woman from China throws and like, she throws it really far and then like Consecutive woman that steps up had like more and more makeup on.
And she just, they feel like all really like, dolled up their hair was nice and everything. the athlete from China, it was just there, you know, she was just like, this is me like no makeup, nothing like her hair is in a, ponytail. So I think that really makes sense based off of what you said, where she saw herself as like, this is my profession. And then, you know, maybe for other countries, it's kind of like, Hey, this is my way to enter a, build my own personal brand or, get into entertainment or do something else after.
oh, another note, uh, I think there were some discussion on Chinese social media this year. It's on a perks, um, on body positivity and body diversity. I think, uh, relevant related that we will hashtag, has been viewed likemillions of times,so there, or some discussion.
[00:42:52] Siyuan Meng: And I think it started, uh, after a female and that doesn't like share her feelings on weight bull and seeing female athletes, uh, had inspired her to understand beauty, like free from body image, anxiety. Um,so I think that's pretty cool. Like people have finally acknowledged, like everybody is different and it's beautiful in their own ways.
I'm really glad to see that.
[00:43:17] Steve Zeng: Yeah, I would echo that. I see that
as a, as a trend in China, Before the Olympics, but that,
especially, you know, in terms of the general populations, just like, exercise And health, as
something that is, more, widely encouraged and promoted. And, so you see people
going to the gym more and you know, doing more
outdoor sports. And then I think, then, you know, as that
relates to your, body shape and then your,your, the complexion of your skin. Right. And so I think
generally the trend is
that,
you know,
it's
starting to move towards
like, Hey, you know, there are different shapes. Um, there are healthier shapes, right. And thereare different color of skin tone that can also be, beautiful. Right. And, you know like you're, you're starting to see more people go and go tanning. Right. Um, which that would have been crazy in China, like even 10 years ago. Um, the last piece that I will talk about this is, um, this is hearsay. This is like my parents telling me the story. Um, so I don't actually know if it happened or not, but, they, they were telling me how they watched the interview, uh, after llywelyn, who is like the Chinese weightlifter won her, uh, one gold, uh, on weightlifting.
[00:44:34] Lucia Liu: Uh, and they said that, uh, you know, during her interview, people ask like Hey, what's next for you? And she's like I want to lose some weight And then get married and
have kids and be like a normal.
[00:44:48] Siyuan Meng: Yeah. Oh my God. Actually,
there was a similar story.
So like a
gold medalist from the
women's shop, put team, was referred to by someone
as a mainly female and actually it's by a TV, TV journalist. And so she was also ask about her manager prions, however, the journalist Maxim
backlash, uh, following the interview and that dozens
were calling the interview very sexist and narrow-minded.
[00:45:18] Lucia Liu: good progression on, on China's part, right
[00:45:21] Siyuan Meng: Yeah.
[00:45:22] Lucia Liu: on opening minds.
[00:45:24] Siyuan Meng: Yeah. Speaking of
which, um, Beijing Olympics is going to come in soon. You guys ready for that?
[00:45:31] Steve Zeng: I think the question is, is, is
Beijing ready for it?yeah,
[00:45:35] Siyuan Meng: That's the question?
[00:45:36] Steve Zeng: is
ready for it, but let's not kid ourselves. Um,
I think one, the vision Olympics I think will happen, just because of the, the, financial terms involved in that just it's I mean, look at Tokyo, even Japan after so much resistance, they S they still, you know, went through with it. Uh, and the other is, as far as I know, like in terms of a process and you know, people management, community management in terms of Olympic village and all that, like
they've been
rehearsing, for at least since the basically outbreak.
and when I say rehearsing, it's like, literally like moving all people. and then getting quarantinethem for like weeks and up to months, like it's ready to go. I'm sure. That's ready to go. Um,the thing though, I think is interesting is like, as you know, with winter Olympics, I'm kind of touched on this as like,with Eileen GU, And how she she'll
[00:46:29] Steve: represent
[00:46:29] Steve Zeng: China. I think this idea of like more Chinese Americans or, or just, you know, even internationals becoming naturalized in, China to represent China, we saw this, uh,uh, in the Olympics this year with Nina Schultz. So she's Chinese Canadian born in Canada, of Chinese descent and she even naturalized to become, to represent,China in the Olympics.
Right. And I think that's actually really, really cool. Um, her grandparents were, famous. Uh, high jumpers in,in China and her grandma had actually at the time in 1957, set world record for high jump. and so she comes from the great jeans and I just think that it's just an amazing story. Um, andWe see this on the other side, right? Like whether it like would look at paint pawn. So one of the jokes in pimp hustle, I was like one of the preliminary rounds I was like in mixed doubles and it was, uh, China
versus Canada.
And the comment Tito is like, look, all four people are Chinese and even the coach has Chinese and they all speak Chinese.
and so, yeah, so like, if you're just a really good at one particular sport,
[00:47:33] Steve Zeng: like all the other countries like naturalized, you know, those athletes. Right.
Um, and it, it just makes sense that like China, we,we're also seeing this in soccer where w we know now for years that China has not put together a strong men's national soccer team.
And so they've actually naturalized like a half a dozen Brazilian and British soccer players. And so I think that's gonna put us on the map.
[00:47:59] Siyuan Meng: Yeah.
[00:48:02] Lucia Liu: seen. Right, Steve? Um, I always think about it actually, because it's like, you know, I'm I was born in China and then I became American citizen and got naturalized if I moved back to China and if I liked naturalized Chinese citizenship, like what does that make me like, am I an American sandwich?
[00:48:21] Siyuan Meng: Yeah.
I remember Eileen guru once asked what's the inspiration under her decision to compete for China. She said, she wants to introduce the, the ski sports to
like 3 million people in China. So I was like, that's kind of touching.
[00:48:39] Steve Zeng: Yeah.
one of my friends is actually she did, she did a documentary on her too. I think it's a great story that, you know, the thing to to say is like, this happens in the U S and it's super normal, Right. So like, I'm, first-generation Chinese American. If I was actually like good enough to, you know, run, run track in the Olympics, you know, I would you know, I could be representing the, you know, the U S right.
[00:49:03] Steve Zeng: And so, and if you look at like, you know, because our general conception of the U S is that it's a
it's a cultural melting pot, right. That everyone comes here and then it becomes American. and so therefore, when you the American Olympic team is
just
mixed. people from everywhere. Right. Effectively, as I would
say,
like,
if you. look at the
Chinese Olympic team, everybody is Chinese. it'll have a different look. Um, and so I think, China,
is also starting to open their policy towards this more. um, but I think this practice in general is like it's just widely used by pretty much everyone else.
[00:49:36] Lucia Liu: Well, Steve, it's been really lovely chatting with you. Thanks for talking us through like, you know, the differences between lake sports in the states and in China, how athletes are different, talking through like different fans. So it's definitely been really eye-opening, it's been very entertaining. and you know, hopefully one day they'll have a spicy food eating contest and the Olympics, and will be the
first to watch.
[00:50:02] Steve Zeng: guys should join.
[00:50:04] Lucia Liu: We'll
make a poster for you.
[00:50:06] Siyuan Meng: your state.
[00:50:06] Lucia Liu: We'll root for you
[00:50:08] Steve Zeng: Thanks
guys. I really appreciate the time. Thanks for having me
on, um, I'm going to cook some
Mapo tofu and, uh, and start practicing.
[00:50:16] Siyuan Meng: Thanks Steve so much for the insights and story. really interesting.
[00:50:22] Steve Zeng: guys. I appreciate it.